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14 hours ago, redeyesandlonghair said:

Modders also have a lot less restrictions than a company does.  If I want to make a mod that causes it to rain watermelons on the wasteland, I can do that.  If Bethesda released the game with watermelon rain, people might take issue with it.

 

See here's the thing: you say they can't do it... well, you're just wrong.  Flat out, completely wrong.  They could do it, but do you think that public opinion of the game would be better if they had released it at ENB-quality levels along with ENB-level hardware requirements?  Yes, they could have made the game look so great that the highest quality ENB preset would be jacking off in amazement... but then you can take the current "The requirements are too high!" complaints and multiply it by a thousand.  Bethesda have to live with the reality of what their game is: it's not some corridor shooter, it has more considerations it needs to make, Bethesda's games always have due to the nature of their environments.

 

Also, let's not forget, modders are in every single case riding on Bethesda's back.  Bethesda put the vast majority of the work in, and then modders come along and modify it a bit and suddenly people are making ridiculous statements like "Wow modder!  You're better at making video games than bethesda is!  Bethesda is a big pile of shit and you're the best thing ever!".  Let's be honest, if we remove Bethesda from the equation, Mr. Amazing Modder goes back to being a cashier at Walmart who nobody's ever heard of ( or whatever job it is they do where nobody sings their praises because we no longer praise people who get paid to do things ).

 

Oh, but excuse me, I'm being "uncool" again.  Please, quick, somebody call me a shill.

This and your previous comment: Nice to see a voice of reason now and then ^^

13 hours ago, Shiratama said:

I can understand being annoyed by other people beating on a game you like, but the lengths you go to defend it are frankly embarassing.

And then many of the complaints about the game are very forced, contrived and totally subjective - I call many of these criticisms embarrassing as well. Not meant as an attack or anything, but to me most things always have two ways to look at them ....

I for once stopped to "dissect" this game, look at every little thing technically or gameplay-wise, and simply enjoy it as a standalone game. My (personal) verdict so far: Best Fallout of the "modern" age, I enjoy it even more than NV, mostly due to the New-England-Setting, and the main story is a wee bit more enthralling to me, plus the chars have much more character, depth, and interaction - you're on a good way, Bethesda!. Also the game is gladly a little less "over-the-top", though still has the weird charm and WTF-moments (USS Constitution). Has it flaws? Yeah, it does. But not enough by far to have me not enjoy this game...

19 hours ago, alucrad90 said:

I think this part could really be an addon/sidequest of a brothel mod or something like that

 

Maybe we could make a brothel framework

Well, a true brothel-story-mod would be kinda awesome, I was hoping for one for: Skyrim, New Vegas, Oblivion, but none of the prostitution-mods really qulified as true "brothels", with more to it than just sex. Some got close, but either lacked a true brothel-like-location, or were too lore-unfriendly for me (like the cumshotbrothel for Skyrim, for example)

So yeah, I hope someone will go this route when the time cums...momes I mean

It looks like Fallout, it feels like Fallout. And I played every Fallout, including Tactics...

Way too early for "story/quest-mods" but I hope to plant the idea already in some minds:

Return of the Golden Globes Porn Studio.

A place (in Goodneighbour probably?) where you can work as a pornstar, or at least become one, or just stay a puny stuntcock/fluffer if charisma is too low ^^

It would be (in my mind) dialogue-heavy, with a typical casting in the beginning, early work as a fluffer (just thinking female-part for now), some solo-scenes and lesbo, and the more work you do the harder and extreme the stuff would get with optional more perverted stuff that could be added later module-like as more sexcontent is created for FO4 (hopefully!) Threesomes, gangbangs, BDSM, beastiality etc.

There could also be "stories" attached, like a rivalry with another starlet seeing you as competition, a mobster wanting to take over the business, relationship-problems of some other actors with their partners and much more. The "shoots" themselves could be made like "real" porn-shoots, with the director giving instructions, commenting on the performance, or the mae lead having "problems" - and of course if the modder is a writer s/he could add cheesy porn-dialogue galore (Hello Miss, do you want to know why we are the Brotherhood of STEEL!?)

Would be lorewise quite believable, could be funny, and a nice alternative to the usual hooker/prostitution-stuff...if anyone in some years wants to go there: I will happily throw out ideas ^^

11 hours ago, Kendo 2 said:

Nah, Mass Effect was interesting. 

Merely the first one, Mass Effect got stupid with part two and went into cuckoo land in part three ...

And to the OP: No, why? Not had this feeling once. Actually, to me Witcher 3 is more like ME in some ways, with its focus on cinematic cutscenes every five minutes, becoming more of an interactive movie than an actual game...

Adding to my list of "likes"

Nick Valentine - a surprise for me. I really like that fellow, who would have thought?

Piper the Reporter - Again, she is likeable to me.

These two characters already are high above all/most Bethesda was able so far to create in terms of charismatic characters with personality.

And just because it was a wow-thing to me: I really liked how they introduce the Brotherhood of Steel during the main quest at some point...geez, not really long, but damn it had me just staring at the sky until it was over.

Oh, and one last thing: Killing hordes of enemies while "In the halls of the Mountain King" is playing? It hardly gets any better ! Classic Radio really has its moments

Well, all the fun sex-stuff clearly happened prior to the war...just let us hear these true words of Mr. "Soup Can Harry" - future overseer of Vault 114. This rascal, he loved to drink Abraxo-cleaner, 'cause ain't nobody dare to tell him not to! I wish he would run for an even higher office ^^

"I've seen what they do! Gum up the works with red tapes and bureaucracy. Take every hard-earned cent and use it to fund their illuminati free mason sex parties!"

16 hours ago, redeyesandlonghair said:

The problem is that people are too eager to complain nowadays, so any negative feedback gets lost in the mass volume of whining and crying.  Sure, some people make legitimate, well thought out criticisms.... but for every one of them there's a hundred to a thousand people trying to be the Angry Video Game Nerd calling a game a big poopy butt covered in dick hole vomit.  As a result, " a bunch of people saying something is bad " is fairly meaningless nowadays, even if a bunch of those people happen to be proffesional critics... because no matter what comes out nowadays, if it's put out by a big company you can expect a tidal wave of negative feedback completely regardless of if the game is good or not.  It's just popular to shit on AAA products.  It's just popular to shit on any company making the arguably smart move of appealing to the casual mainstream.  It's just popular to act as if any change is bad change.  It becomes difficult to see who's giving real feedback, and who's just another parrot trying to be part of the "in crowd".

 

That's why it doesn't work.  Too many illegitimate complaints drowning out the legitimate ones.

Amen to this. That whole raging at Metacritic is actually funny and sad at the same time. I blame the Internet for this, where you can throw a tantrum at everything everywhere, and something is only the best (Witcher 3, CD Red, woohoo I want your babies!) or worst (Damn you Bethesda, this game is not like FO2 anymore, and you take money for DLCs! You are the devils)

I sometimes sit back in my wheelchair and think back at ye olde tymes and wonder: How would people react to Baldurs Gate 2 today ("not much graphical improvement to part 1, why am I forced to play as Bhaalspawn, why am I forced to search Imoen, where are the companions I played part one through with??? Why only one female romance!? Worst game EVAH!) or Fallout 2 (Why are we forced to play as a tribal? Why does the combat-system suck so much, my companions are idiots! Fuck you, Interplay!)

The last time I really raged was after ME3 and the abysmal ending to a great series, but even that game, despite its flaws, had enough merits. And I somehow feel like a lot of people simply cannot enjoy a game or movie anymore for what it is, without judging it, comparing it, measure it until all enjoyment is sucked out of it...

Guess I suffer from my sunday-evening-depression at them moment

23 minutes ago, DocClox said:

Changing the subject entirely: half an hour in and you get power armour, a minigun, and a fight with a deathclaw. I mean seriously? Someone in marketing wanted to make sure all the brand recognition boxes got ticked for the E3 demo, didn't they?

 

See, this is to my mind is why it's wrong to characterise this as a hate thread. It's not that we hate the game. We love the franchise and the setting; this is more about venting frustration, Because grabbing Todd Howard by the lapels and shaking him until his teeth rattle while shouting "WHAT THE FUCK WERE YOU THINKING" would probably get us arrested, and venting a little on an internet forum seems like a far more socially acceptable way to let off some steam.

I really don't get why this is a problem for people ... it is a evil tease by Bethesda at best, and a clever one as well.  Giving the players a taste of Power Armor, how powerful you are (killing weak Raiders, yeah, eat this!), how challenging still other enemies will be (Deathclaw), and how limited this power still is (you need fusion cores and repair the suit). They could tell it via onscreen messages or some shit, but this way, its show don't tell, a nice way to introduce the player to a new concept of the game, and gives them something to look forward to while exploring the Wasteland... I haven't used the armour since then after many more hours, but already planning to do so, wiping out some nasty Super Mutants, and then there was this suit along the way I could not get yet...in no other FO before I ever cared about Pwoer Armor at all (it looked just too stupid, I prefer the Mad Max Look)

But its the hate thread, it needs to grow of course so...yeah, I really hate the inventory-system. I mean, I am used to it since FO3 and NV, I can live with it but...geez, I really want a damn ragdoll-inventory to dress my char! And what's that with weapons and armor and stats...they all get various prefixes now like in Diablo, but most of the time I have no effin' clue what I picked up and what it does better ... I just orient at the price now

20 hours ago, GrimReaper said:

I do consider the beginning of the game to be bait, though. It's really easy to think that the game is a CoD-clone, with you getting Power Armor and a minigun early, fighting a bunch of raiders that mostly just stand there and a Deathclaw at the end while everything explodes around you. The thing is though that the PA is limited by fusion cores and the parts needed to repair and upgrade it and you won't find any ammo for the minigun for a long time - as well as the minigun doing really terrible damage per shot. So if I see people complaining about that you get a PA early or that the game is just about flashy gunfights without any kind of depth I consider them being the victim of Bethesda's trolling. No idea why they would do that, though, because the early game is normally where you want to get people's attention yet the beginning is easily the worst part of this game.

You said it in your very first sentence here ... PA at the beginning and the stuff you can blow up, the Deathclaw etc...that's all very consciencly set up by Bethesda to showcase the new PA, how it works, and wanting you to search the damn Wasteland to get more Fusion Cores. And because PA is now realistcally using power-cores and limited in its usability it also doesn't really matter that you get it so early. It's a carrot we are supposed to catch while carrying the wagon ^^ .. And I think the PA-section was very weill set up to get player-attention, and wanting to be ironman again

One word: Super Mutant Suicider ... well, it's three words actually, but after my first encouter with that and what he is carrying - who thinks about maths anymore!?

Not exactly this way...it was at night and I just heard the bomb, saw the fire, and the Ghouls running from afar...I first thought the Brotherhood was up there, but..well, yeah, snuck up some fireladders, ran into some other nasty surprises though...burned the fuckers with a Molotov, but died a couple of times before this...'twas really fun, and those damn Running Irradiated Dead ...

23 hours ago, ritualclarity said:

Has anyone been to the superduper mart? Daaaammm !!!

Yesterday, a visit before entering Corvega today. Damn those Ghouls. I am a sucker fir The Walking Dead though, so it really was a fun experience, and at least once I got caught by surprise and was shocked like a little girl and not a Fallout-Veteran...and I fell in love with the double-shotgun cause of that...finally that one packs a punch!

So far, the enemies I encountered, even the Raiders, are quite more enjoyable than in previous Fallouts. The gun-fights, sounds, etc are also very much improved, and despite popular believe: Fallout was always, even in 1+2, very heavy on fighting...

The Power-Armour though is without doubt a major improvement. Anyone saying differently has no clue ^^ I always hated those armour in all previous games, as they made my char look stupid and I prefer the Mad-Max-Wastlander-Look, not the Imperium-Spacemarine. But I can see myself donning that armour now and then, as it's more of a vehicle than clothing. And just eradicating some Raiders with a Minigun while cars are nuking up, all the while its dark and raining? Pretty damn awesome...

There are other things I like, but it's too early for a final verdict. But I have to admit: The prologue the "awakening" in the Vault, the holorec Codsworth gives you, plus the damn sad song that was ironically playing first time I started the radio...all that was probably the most moving beginning and emotional start to any Beth-Game to date for me...that actually came as a surprise, though I doubt it will last ^^

1 hour ago, the_mess said:

1 hour ago, the_mess said:

And yeah the feral ghouls are shit. In that railroad station zone they were coming from all over the place. I barely managed to deal with them. 

 

To be honest I didn't expected such tense fights and encounters so early in the game. I mean, look at F3 NV or Skyrim. Its not about being easy or not, this is just lel m9 wre gunna fkn crush u XD XD XD

Just been there and damn, I love those Feral Ghouls, they are terrifying. Why did I go there after dark...But I did it like Seargant REx Power Colt and said "Shotgun!" Still, they are creepy as fuck this time...and damn, never trust you're safe ...

1 hour ago, the_mess said:

1 hour ago, GabrielAngelos said:

Oh just you wait until you see that poignant ending . . .

 

The end? Well, FO3-Ending was kinda bad, I eventually saw the ending for Skyrim last year and it was...meh, Morrowind and Oblivion were no better, and despite countless hours I never bothered to finish New Vegas...I also endured the craptastic ME3-Ending...

To make it short: Endings in video-games no longer have much meaning to it. Game-devs seem not to care anymore, filmmakers often neither, sometimes we can be glad to even get an ending at all ...

So roughly to hours in game isn't that much for a justified statement but...a quick first impression, who will judge me ^^

I am not a graphic-whore and can never really tell for sure when graphics are supposed to be "bad" or "good". They either please my eye or don't, and I have no clue whether textures, lighting, effects, whatnot etc are up to date, last gen or whatever. All I can say so far is: Graphics do please my eye, especially after a quick visit to Fallout: NV yesterday. It's bleak, stuff is decayed and rusted, the sky is blue, it RAINS without mods, characters, well, look best so far in any Beth-Game...

However, a body-mod already is most welcomed...at least the feet are not as obnoxious as in Skyrim Vanilla (though still...not really nice)

I liked the char-creation, it's at least much better to handle than in DA: Inquisition and gives the right amount of presets and ability to screw around yourself...Though I'll have to delve a bit more into it with my "real" char later this week I guess.

I also like the voice-acting. It's controversial for many, I am aware of this, but it's a nice change to have my char react to the horrors around, and the female voice is kinda pleasing to me. Though facial expression and body-movement leave a bit to desired...Codworth was fun though ^^. Also I really do not mind we play as a somewhat adult this time - but don't worry, enough mods will turn the protagonists in anime-girlies soon enough ... ^^

The plot-premise so far: also hits a soft spot with me (though probably not with everyone). I am already caring a bit more for all this than I did in FO3 for this whole daddy-search, and surely I care more for Shaun the sheep baby than I did than searching for annoying Ciri the Wonder-dog-child in W3. Will it last? Too early to tell...at least for me its a promising start, for a Beth-Game that is...

And speaking of dogs: Yeah, so far, its fun fiddling around with the dog. But writing this on this board? Well, it's a given what kind of mod we might see in some months, years more likely ^^

The VTS also seems quite fun to use and feels a bit more "active" without taking away the original feeling. Combat is bloody enough, I already hate the mosquitos, and molerats are actually burrying in the ground^^. The menus are, as usual and expected, horrible for a PC-player, but after so many games and years one has to finally give in to this I guess and just take it as a feature to make the game less casual ^^

Most important however: It really feels like Fallout so far. Especially that depressed feeling you get playing the prologue, the wake-up. Seeing the destruction, the decay, the skeletons, wandering through houses knowing how the looked before the bombs - Fallout even more than the Elder Scrolls games really encourage me to check out the houses, enviroments and stuff, and makes my imagination running...

Currently preloading, will be painful to see it installed and still ahve to wait a couple of days though...hmm

Until that:I mostly like the mere fact we get another Fallout. I mean, to all "haters" how many games of this type exist at all? Postapocalypse free-roaming moddable adventure with bloody combat and a soundtrack you'll never get in another modern game? What's not to like here? (But it amuses me greatly that the "hate" thread has double the amount of posts and I bet it will be growing exceptionally after the game is out ^^)

About the actual game I'll revisit the thread after some actual game-time. Though one thing I like, though I am unsure how important/relevant it will be: Playing as a character who was alive before the war. I always liked that scenario, stumbling out of a vault and ...shit, what happened? And with the new voiced main-char thisscenario can actually be made story-relevant in some way...hopefully at least...we'll see...(the other "Beth-Game" that did this, "RAGE", was very dissapointing in this regard)

Whoa, never was the first to post anywhere at all!

So...I hate about FO4 mostly the people that hate it already without having played it yet....Does that count? I mean it's not strictly hating on the game itself, but how can anyone already ... it's not released after all...just sayin' ... maybe I come back in a couple of weeks with some actual facts to hate ... I am sure I'll find something that will rub me the wrong way...

but ah, HATE...HATE...I relish in it! Should have named me Palpatine afterall ...

 

FO4 is what it is.  Some people will love it, some people will hate it and some people will just ignore it.  No matter the stance we won't be getting the 'it can be modded' game we were hoping for; or at least I won't be.

And then there might be the little fact to remember that Bethesda is still the only company that brings out games that can be modded to this degree, games that are designed to some degree with mods in mind...I mean just sayin', as there is so much doom and gloom here in many posts.

And I like to read the usual "Bethesda sucks because the game is doing this, they force me to play a voiced char, they are not getting "modern", graphics suck, consoles suck,and we don't get to play as an omisexual genderneutral blank page (Hey, I never agreed my Chars was hunting a waterchip, was the Chosen One of some degenerate savages, had a scientist-daddy purifying water, or had spend her last days working to get platinum-chip from A to B as well, so there is that) - I remember something similar when Skyrim came out...

Probably not a very prominent opinion I have here, but hey, I agree with this point: Some people will love it, some hate it, some will be left cold by it. Like with any other game out there...

 

A content update is now on Patreon for anyone backing $5 or more. That content is:

 

- The gangbang that used to start enslavement at NCRCF has been brought back, and this time it's better than ever!

- New blackmail missions from Nephi - kidnap Violet and Betsy so he can enslave them. You can also demand sex from them, in addition to Nephi demanding you fuck them for his entertainment when you come to him for a fix.

- Various small bug fixes and some stuff on the back end to make it run more smoothly.

 

This will go public to LoversLab November 1st, when it will be replaced by the next content update - a new quest line given by Adficio Inimicus as a follow up to "The Whore of Babylon."

 

Somehow the end of years are always more interesting than the rest...New Tryout update coming, Star Wars Trailer hitting the web, Wasteland 2 directors Cut for free, soon Fallout 4, a new free update for me on Old Republic to satisfy my Star Wars needs and ...it just goes on!

Wating for Halloween then, already sounds pretty cool what you have on your perverted mind...

Tough one...Morrowind has really had an impact on me, it was the first openworld-rpg I played, and I played it for hours, and got me introduced into Tamriel-Lore etc. But it didn't age so well, I tried to play it again 2 years ago or so...

So I'll make the unpopular choice and say: Skyrim. I love how they got back into lore of the province's species (Nords), I like it how it has a darker tone like morrowind again, I like their attempt of telling a story, which they steadily improve but yeah...its still not their strong side...the dungeons are probably the most unique so far and often have something memorable in it (enemy, loot, quests etc)

Oblivion surely is the weakest of them all. I played it long, like the others, but it never grew on me. It felt and still feels too sterile, to build-by-the-book, to colorfull. The story had the potential to be epic, but left me cold in the end. The dungeons are horribly designed and repetitive/serve no purpose at all...I don't know, even ESO did a better job at catching the Elder Scrolls spirit than Oblivion did...I wish they'd make a remake of Oblivion, with a better designed world and better written story...

I've only finished VtMB once, played with the nerdy looking female class (can't recall their name). Malkavians were too weird for me. I enjoyed the game quite a bit, even though I generally hate the overly used vampire cliches, but I also have to admit the game sucked a bit towards the end.

Probably Tremaire then, Thaumaturgie was kinda cool, but I prefer a Katana/Uzi-wielding Ventrue or Toreador. Malkavians were a lot of fun too, best dialogues one can imagine!

Not sure what the overly used cliches were...maybe that Vamps sucked blood, were actually dead and didn't sparkle?

But yeah, towards teh end you could really see and feel it was rushed to be completed. Still a game worth playing even today. Great characters, okay combat, interesting story with a nice twist to it. For me a classic, and I wish I could still play it today but...I just know every little pixel of it by now, makes it hard to enjoy even with other races...

 

Thanks!

Old Nephi has plans for Violet, friend, don't you worry. I also plan on modernizing her dog gang bang to work with the new companion system.

As for the kennel mod, I never used it. I do plan more fun stuff with creatures, though. More bondage, too.

I hoped as much   Violet really needs an overhaul. I am still convinced the Obsidian-dev designing her intended her to be a dog-fucker, only Tryout allowed her to "come out"

Yeah, the "Kennel", the bane of my first months after discovering Loverslab...a pain in the ass to keep up to date and working. Thinking more about it, lore-wise creature/canine-action etc should maybe more connected to the crazy fucked and drugged up fiends anyway, Motor-Runner and Violet setting already an example as to where to go further. And maybe the Kennel at the Legion might get some love some day. Degrading women is their thing, they even have an arena for dog-fights...why not something else for entertainment until ready to attack the NCR...

Well, I have to say: I am impressed. Quite some update that is, not just some fixes, but real additional content, and quite some creative one, and even a (small) new location, and loads of dialouge and text, which I consider to be the most important stuff in mods like this.

I admit, I really didn't expect to see that in Tryout to that amount again^^ And you even plan more in the way of this? Sounds almost too great ...

Personally, some more effed up stuff for Violet would be cool, or, though probably unlikely but I have to write it, a necromancing-effort for the outdated tryoutplugin "Kennel", I always liked how dark that was, how well it fitted thematically to this whole prison-thing and all...would love to see an official version/tribute to that idea in some way (more elaborate maybe than the Legion-Kennel), I still have nightmares about getting the old version to work...

Thumbs up!

Hm, open world never was my cup of tea either, though Morrowind and Skyrim and Fallout/NV I can enjoy, and hardly got bored of it (Oblivion is another matter though). But lately? Not even high-praised Witcher 3 really made me feel like its an alive open-world (and clearly they should have done that game like Witcher 2, with tighter storytelling and less treasurechest-crap and towns I don't care about). So I hope that the only company (for me) that does interesting open world to some degree delivers again with FO4...

While I mostly disagree with the OP's points and don't even understand how he got some of his ideas I will say: Yeah, by now, that fifties-setting is getting kinda annyoing to me as well. It's what makes the setting special though, but...maybe because I am from Europe this whole American Fifties thing has worn off on me by now, as I could hardly relate to it anyway.

But even worse (to me) with Fallout is that it seems to get more and more "civilised" in many ways. Now we have big factions again like the NCR, the MIT and their advanced Androids etc. I wish Fallout would embrace the sheer insanity of the Wasteland a bit more again...and having watched "Fury Road" lately might have formed my opinion here, I admit. For me, Fallout should have less robots 'n androids, ever-advanding powerarmor and callbacks to the pre-apocalypse, but go back to crazy fucked-up Raiders terrorizing the wastelands and half-naked tribals and little communities in the middle called Merchant Town and Gun Farm ^^. I also wish the protagonist would be again someone from the post-apocalypse like in FO2, and not yet again a Vault-Dweller, now even directly from the past as it seems...

As for the "liberal propaganda" ? Still not sure about that...the only true propaganda I can think of was coming from this awesome guy, and of course he is right and I hope Donald Trump, president of the United States of Supreme America will soon build him ^^

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGaosBHdFMA

 

For everyone posting ideas:  I know I don't respond much but I really like reading all of your ideas. So, thank you!

Big mistake, you made me write another post this way...

Let's talk: Daedra! And no, not hot Dragonborn on Atronach action but Sanguine, the Daedric prince of, let's say it together: LUST! And debauchery! And sex! And drinking and unrestrained copulation! I think I proposed something similar some time ago: You get hired to perform at a sanguine ritual, basically a sexparty dedicated to the Prince of Lust. I somehow picture a large orgy involving all kinds of kinky stuff, much like the Companion competition but with more going on, all set in an atmospherically decorated place (not sure if its a dependancy: But that castle Volkihar or the Dawnguard looks kinda nice, with the furniture and rugs etc...^^)

Another Daedra-idea: Hircine...I mean, its kinda obvious, he is Prince of the Hunt and beasts. At some point the PC's actions in the Mansion attract his attention and you become the hunted by ... a lot of beasts in some otherworldly place - of course its not about killing you...^^

And then there was Molag-Bal...the Prince of Rape...and quite an opporunity to put in some darker material if you really wanted to, without compromising the original idea of the Mansion. Maybe something like the above, or you fall in the hands of some foul priest to Molag Bal who abuses the PC in many ways etc...again to maybe complete some kind of ritual?

Now if making a mod out of that was as easy as just spewing out these ideas ...