How reliable is LOOT? Do you always depend on it?

[kamikaze00007]

As the title suggests, I came to write this topic after finding myself caught in a BSOD-spree.

 

Many of us use a number of software/tools in playing a modded Skyrim as part of the normal routine. In fact, we can't live without them anymore if I may say so myself. One such tool I use is Mod Organizer and its mod segregation system that just works fine as a perfect day would for yours truly.

 

But not all is fine and well with the multitude of mods that range in the thousands that if only possible, we'd all be using. Thus, we get bogged down with a large number of conflicts and then we get broken saves and other stuff. Here comes LOOT to the rescue...

 

LOOT. Or Load Order Optimization Tool if I remembered it correctly, is a sorting tool that automatically sorts your ESMs and ESPs so that conflicts are none if not, minimal. Mod Organizer also has it as a nifty integrated feature.

 

Still, I never found myself using the thing as within seconds after having it sort my stuff I get this annoying feeling that my load order has gone through this week's storm signal and it looks more like it jumbled stuff up rather than arrange them, prompting me to click on the load backup load order list button and forget what just happened.

 

The question remains in my mind though, LOOT supposedly updates its mod lists so there should be no problem with using it. However, just how reliable is it? How many of users like me are out there who rely on it and find it to be worthy of actually relying upon?

 

Do note that I use mods that come from many places ranging from here at LL, the Nexus, 3DM, Modtype, and a whole other bunch of sites that I don't even know if LOOT itself supports.

 

What do you think?

[Plumber]

In my opinion, CS (or Common Sense) is much more reliable.

This amazing tool is located somewhere in my brain.

 

P.S. Sorry, my English is bad.

[Pyrus]

From what I understand unlike BOSS, which requires that someone decide where a plugin should go and then add it to the masterlist, LOOT works by scanning the plugin's content and then sorting it based on some predefined rules.   Good side is that there are no unrecognized plugins now, bad side is the inevitable exceptions to the their predefined rules need to be spotted and manually added to the masterlist.

[w33beast1e]

I'm not all that bright when it comes to the techy stuff but even I can see how much cleverer LOOT is than BOSS ever was. That's because I used to have to manually do what LOOT does with a single button press - laboriously combing through filtered lists of conflicted records in TES5 to sort out what BOSS couldn't because it's masterlist was constantly out of date, or just wasn't right. Actually, my own manual efforts tended to look just as seemingly chaotic as a LOOT sort does.

 

But it does have it's limits. I create a lot of merged esps, LOOT tends to get itself in a twirl over those. So it's not the saviour of the universe, but it sure beats doing it all manually - anybody that does that has my admiration, but I think they're either crazy or maybe they just like doing the admin more than they like to play - for me it's all about the game, I loath the paperwork. 

 

[enkephalin07]

After getting back a lot of poor ordering choices from LOOT, I started matching my plugins against their masterlist, and found that hardly any of them were there. A few were, so it's possible LOOT has been as helpful as it has been harmful. When it's not breaking what was fixed, it's fixing what isn't broken.

 

Maybe it's just way too soon for it to go prime-time, but if you need plugin ordering software that at least justifies itself and doesn't spit out a cryptic jumble of crap, BOSS is still online.

 

To illustrate, here's a stable load order:

Skyrim.esm
Update.esm
Unofficial Skyrim Patch.esp
Dawnguard.esm
Unofficial Dawnguard Patch.esp
HearthFires.esm
Unofficial Hearthfire Patch.esp
Dragonborn.esm
Unofficial Dragonborn Patch.esp
Skyrim Project Optimization - Full Version.esm
daymoyl.esm
GeneralStores.esm
RaceCompatibility.esm
ApachiiHair.esm
ApachiiHairFemales.esm
ApachiiHairMales.esm
Schlongs of Skyrim - Core.esm
ZaZAnimationPack.esm
ETaC - RESOURCES.esm
BBLuxurySuite.esm
SexLab.esm
SexLabAroused.esm
Devious Devices - Assets.esm
Devious Devices - Integration.esm
Devious Devices - Expansion.esm
SkyUI.esp
SMIM-Merged-All.esp
EpisodeParallax.esp
RCRNdgdb.esp
rcrnShaders.esp
RCRNvolumetric.esp
TES Music - Oblivion and Morrrowind Soundtrack.esp
chfshPlayerVoicesets.esp
AOS.esp
Immersive Sounds - Compendium.esp
ISCompendium AOS Patch.esp
WATER.esp
WATER DB Waves.esp
WATER Plants.esp
SplashofRain.esp
Dynamic Giant Campfires.esp
WetandCold.esp
WetandCold - Ashes.esp
WetandCold - Holidays.esp
AOS2_WetandCold Patch.esp
Footprints.esp
Footprints - Ash.esp
QuickStart3_NoHelmet.esp
SkyRealism - Time and Travel.esp
EnhancedCharacterEdit.esp
CharacterMakingExtender.esp
RaceCompatibility.esp
RaceMenu.esp
RaceMenuPlugin.esp
Character Creation Overhaul.esp
CCO - Diverse Races And Genders.esp
CCO - Dynamic Skill Progression.esp
CCO - Oblivion Carry Weights.esp
CCO - Permanent Birthsigns.esp
dD - Realistic Ragdoll Force - Realistic.esp
Dead Body Collision.esp
dD - Easy Lift Bodies and Objects.esp
dD-No Spinning Death Animation.esp
dD - Enhanced Blood Main.esp
AOS2_EBT Patch.esp
ISCompendium Enhanced Blood Patch.esp
Auto Unequip Ammo.esp
ACE Archery.esp
ACE Armor.esp
ACE BYOG.esp
ACE Enchanting.esp
ACE Magic.esp
ACE Melee.esp
ACE Realistic Fighting.esp
ACE Smithing.esp
ACE Speech.esp
ACE Synergy.esp
towBlockSteal.esp
Realistic crime report radius.esp
Dual Wield Parrying_RandomAttacks_Dawnguard.esp
towConversation.esp
FSS-Slight pause between lines.esp
RealisticHumanoidMovementSpeed.esp
Sneak Tools.esp
Sneak Tools Vanilla Hoods.esp
Sneak Tools Vanilla Masks.esp
SmartCast_1_0.esp
_tck_SpellCrafting.esp
TownsAndCitiesEnhanced.esp
TAVERiften.esp
RiverwoodEnhancedPlugin.esp
TAVESolitude.esp
WhiterunInEnhanced.esp
ETaC - Complete.esp
ETaC - Dragon Bridge South.esp
CornerofTheSkyrim.esp
TouringCarriages.esp
SkyFalls + SkyMills + DG + DB.esp
SkyFalls Dragonborn Small waterfalls.esp
BetterDocks-MP-DLC-Compatible.esp
WhiterunAlivePiano.esp
DawnofWindhelm.esp
winterhold_improvements.esp
CollegeOfWinterholdImmersive.esp
CWIDawnDragonPatch.esp
CWINPCApachiiSkyHair.esp
CWIWCIPatch.esp
WI_CWI_Patch.esp
Helgen Reborn.esp
nTr4nc3 - Whiterun Mansion.esp
Whiterun Mansion - SPO.esp
NeutralHjerim.esp
BanneredMareOverhaul.esp
AnIdealSkyforge.esp
BBLuxurySuiteExt.esp
BBLuxurySuiteClassier.esp
HoldBorderBanners.esp
Point The Way.esp
TrueBrows.esp
TheEyesOfBeauty.esp
Babette.esp
The Eyes Of Beauty - Elves Edition.esp
Beards.esp
Schlongs of Skyrim.esp
SOS - VectorPlexus Regular Addon.esp
RaceMenuOverlayCompilation - CBBE.esp
The Joy of Perspective.esp
RaceMenuPluginXPMSE.esp
FNISSexyMove.esp
FNISspells.esp
BooksBooksBooks.esp
Book Covers Skyrim.esp
NewmillerCasualBikiniUNP2.esp
NewmillerShoesUNP.esp
TERAArmors_CBBE.esp
CalienteVanillaArmorTweaks.esp
Remodeled Armor - Underwear.esp
Remodeled Armor - Vanilla Replacer.esp
Remodeled Armor - Vanilla Replacer - Dawnguard.esp
Remodeled Armor - Vanilla Replacer - Dragonborn.esp
Hothtrooper44_ArmorCompilation.esp
zarias_restraints.esp
Lost Art of the Blacksmith.esp
Crossbows_Basic_Collection_EN_LL.esp
skyforgedWeapons.esp
Lore Weapon Expansion.esp
Immersive Weapons.esp
More Craftables.esp
Unique Uniques.esp
BetterQuestObjectives.esp
BetterQuestObjectives-BSaQBPatch.esp
BetterQuestObjectives-Dawnguard.esp
BetterQuestObjectives-Hearthfire.esp
UltimateDragons.esp
DSAMG - Miraak Music Fixes.esp
83Willows_101BUGS_V4_HighRes.esp
ImprovedFishBASIC.esp
Skyrim Immersive Creatures.esp
Skyrim Immersive Creatures - DLC2.esp
Convenient Horses.esp
SexLabMiscellaneousFeatures.esp
SexLab Cumshot.esp
SexLabSquirt.esp
SexLab Romance.esp
SexLab-AmorousAdventures.esp
LoversComfort.esp
SpousesEnhanced.esp
Devious Deviants.esp
Devious Devices - Males Addon.esp
sanguinesDebauchery.esp
SDpatch - dawnguard.esp
SDpatch - dragonborn.esp
SDpatch - frostfall.esp
SexLabDefeat.esp
mslDeviousCaptures.esp
Captured Dreams.esp
SexLab_DibellaCult.esp
Run For Your Lives.esp
When Vampires Attack.esp
NPCWaterAIScripted.esp
Immersive NPC in the dark.esp
Immersive Patrols II.esp
Better Stealth AI for Followers.esp
BetterQuestObjectives-BetterStealthAIPatch.esp
Guard Dialogue Overhaul.esp
AOS2_GDO Patch.esp
FCO - Follower Commentary Overhaul.esp
HousecarlWhiterun.esp
BBLSHousecarlsmovein.esp
BetterQuestObjectives-UFOPatch.esp
BBLSspouse.esp
BBLSVisitors.esp
SofiaFollower.esp
AliciaPainSlut.esp
3DNPC.esp
3DNPC - Bisexuality Patch.esp
Bashed Patch, 0.esp

 

And this is what it looks like after LOOT gets ahold of it:

Skyrim.esm
Update.esm
Unofficial Skyrim Patch.esp
Dawnguard.esm
Unofficial Dawnguard Patch.esp
HearthFires.esm
Unofficial Hearthfire Patch.esp
Dragonborn.esm
Unofficial Dragonborn Patch.esp
Skyrim Project Optimization - Full Version.esm
daymoyl.esm
GeneralStores.esm
RaceCompatibility.esm
ApachiiHair.esm
ApachiiHairFemales.esm
ApachiiHairMales.esm
Schlongs of Skyrim - Core.esm
ZaZAnimationPack.esm
ETaC - RESOURCES.esm
BBLuxurySuite.esm
SexLab.esm
SexLabAroused.esm
Devious Devices - Assets.esm
Devious Devices - Integration.esm
Devious Devices - Expansion.esm
TouringCarriages.esp
ETaC - Complete.esp
SkyUI.esp
SOS - VectorPlexus Regular Addon.esp
RaceMenuPlugin.esp
Character Creation Overhaul.esp
FNISSexyMove.esp
The Eyes Of Beauty - Elves Edition.esp
Dual Wield Parrying_RandomAttacks_Dawnguard.esp
BetterQuestObjectives-Hearthfire.esp
SkyRealism - Time and Travel.esp
AOS.esp
SmartCast_1_0.esp
Crossbows_Basic_Collection_EN_LL.esp
Beards.esp
Auto Unequip Ammo.esp
CCO - Oblivion Carry Weights.esp
Lost Art of the Blacksmith.esp
CCO - Diverse Races And Genders.esp
CCO - Dynamic Skill Progression.esp
TrueBrows.esp
SexLabMiscellaneousFeatures.esp
towConversation.esp
Babette.esp
RealisticHumanoidMovementSpeed.esp
NeutralHjerim.esp
RaceMenu.esp
CharacterMakingExtender.esp
CollegeOfWinterholdImmersive.esp
BetterQuestObjectives.esp
BetterQuestObjectives-Dawnguard.esp
Better Stealth AI for Followers.esp
BetterQuestObjectives-BetterStealthAIPatch.esp
Dead Body Collision.esp
Convenient Horses.esp
DSAMG - Miraak Music Fixes.esp
SplashofRain.esp
BetterQuestObjectives-UFOPatch.esp
FSS-Slight pause between lines.esp
ETaC - Dragon Bridge South.esp
3DNPC.esp
FCO - Follower Commentary Overhaul.esp
3DNPC - Bisexuality Patch.esp
EpisodeParallax.esp
Devious Devices - Males Addon.esp
Footprints.esp
Footprints - Ash.esp
When Vampires Attack.esp
Immersive NPC in the dark.esp
Immersive Sounds - Compendium.esp
winterhold_improvements.esp
ISCompendium AOS Patch.esp
dD - Enhanced Blood Main.esp
AOS2_EBT Patch.esp
ISCompendium Enhanced Blood Patch.esp
NPCWaterAIScripted.esp
SexLab-AmorousAdventures.esp
RaceCompatibility.esp
QuickStart3_NoHelmet.esp
SDpatch - dragonborn.esp
RaceMenuPluginXPMSE.esp
Realistic crime report radius.esp
Remodeled Armor - Underwear.esp
Remodeled Armor - Vanilla Replacer - Dawnguard.esp
Remodeled Armor - Vanilla Replacer - Dragonborn.esp
Remodeled Armor - Vanilla Replacer.esp
WetandCold.esp
AOS2_WetandCold Patch.esp
HousecarlWhiterun.esp
SexLab Cumshot.esp
SexLabSquirt.esp
dD - Easy Lift Bodies and Objects.esp
TheEyesOfBeauty.esp
TES Music - Oblivion and Morrrowind Soundtrack.esp
The Joy of Perspective.esp
CalienteVanillaArmorTweaks.esp
UltimateDragons.esp
RaceMenuOverlayCompilation - CBBE.esp
WATER.esp
WI_CWI_Patch.esp
Book Covers Skyrim.esp
BetterQuestObjectives-BSaQBPatch.esp
Skyrim Immersive Creatures.esp
BBLuxurySuiteClassier.esp
Helgen Reborn.esp
CWIWCIPatch.esp
Guard Dialogue Overhaul.esp
dD - Realistic Ragdoll Force - Realistic.esp
dD-No Spinning Death Animation.esp
sanguinesDebauchery.esp
CWINPCApachiiSkyHair.esp
chfshPlayerVoicesets.esp
SkyFalls + SkyMills + DG + DB.esp
BanneredMareOverhaul.esp
rcrnShaders.esp
RCRNdgdb.esp
WetandCold - Ashes.esp
BetterDocks-MP-DLC-Compatible.esp
Skyrim Immersive Creatures - DLC2.esp
BooksBooksBooks.esp
Immersive Weapons.esp
Lore Weapon Expansion.esp
CornerofTheSkyrim.esp
DawnofWindhelm.esp
SexLab_DibellaCult.esp
WetandCold - Holidays.esp
Hothtrooper44_ArmorCompilation.esp
WhiterunAlivePiano.esp
WATER DB Waves.esp
Captured Dreams.esp
TERAArmors_CBBE.esp
TownsAndCitiesEnhanced.esp
Run For Your Lives.esp
ACE Enchanting.esp
ImprovedFishBASIC.esp
83Willows_101BUGS_V4_HighRes.esp
ACE Archery.esp
Unique Uniques.esp
AOS2_GDO Patch.esp
More Craftables.esp
Schlongs of Skyrim.esp
AliciaPainSlut.esp
Point The Way.esp
SMIM-Merged-All.esp
CWIDawnDragonPatch.esp
Devious Deviants.esp
EnhancedCharacterEdit.esp
Immersive Patrols II.esp
nTr4nc3 - Whiterun Mansion.esp
TAVESolitude.esp
AnIdealSkyforge.esp
BBLuxurySuiteExt.esp
CCO - Permanent Birthsigns.esp
ACE Melee.esp
BBLSVisitors.esp
SexLab Romance.esp
SkyFalls Dragonborn Small waterfalls.esp
WhiterunInEnhanced.esp
SofiaFollower.esp
_tck_SpellCrafting.esp
ACE Smithing.esp
RiverwoodEnhancedPlugin.esp
ACE Armor.esp
Dynamic Giant Campfires.esp
Sneak Tools.esp
Sneak Tools Vanilla Hoods.esp
Sneak Tools Vanilla Masks.esp
SpousesEnhanced.esp
WATER Plants.esp
SexLabDefeat.esp
mslDeviousCaptures.esp
TAVERiften.esp
HoldBorderBanners.esp
BBLSHousecarlsmovein.esp
BBLSspouse.esp
ACE Speech.esp
Whiterun Mansion - SPO.esp
ACE Synergy.esp
RCRNvolumetric.esp
ACE BYOG.esp
ACE Magic.esp
LoversComfort.esp
ACE Realistic Fighting.esp
zarias_restraints.esp
FNISspells.esp
NewmillerCasualBikiniUNP2.esp
NewmillerShoesUNP.esp
SDpatch - dawnguard.esp
SDpatch - frostfall.esp
skyforgedWeapons.esp
towBlockSteal.esp
Bashed Patch, 0.esp

 

The first one is organized intuitively, so you could find more global modifications (interface, fx, music) arranged higher than more specific (individual NPC's), and addons placed after the plugins they're supposed to modify. I did make some concessions to Mod Organizer's advise, so there are some inconsistencies in it.

 

The second is organized to such an illegible list that you could not, if it turned out to be wrong, quickly locate and make decisions about individual plugins. You could just about find the last thing you put in that heap.

[Hentai-chan]

You may have to do a little manual work yourself sometimes. For example, if you have ECE and Ningheim mods, CharacterMakingExtender.esp has to come after Ningheim.esp. Something CME unable to load faces or something. I don't remember. Plugins that need to be at the end of the load order might get thrown around, too. But that's the job for 'lock load order'. Overall though, it would be impossible for me tidy up my load order manually. I use it every time I get mechanic changing-adding mods and stuff.

 

 

After getting back a lot of poor ordering choices from LOOT, I started matching my plugins against their masterlist, and found that hardly any of them were there. A few were, so it's possible LOOT has been as helpful as it has been harmful. When it's not breaking what was fixed, it's fixing what isn't broken.

 

Maybe it's just way too soon for it to go prime-time, but if you need plugin ordering software that at least justifies itself and doesn't spit out a cryptic jumble of crap, BOSS is still online.

You should really check what authors have to say about where their mod should be loaded. And do use LOOT in conjuction with MO? They go hand-in-hand. Or at least they should considering MO has a lot of pointers on in which order mods should be loaded.

[Mord Sif]

I've always just sorted my load order manually, taking care to stick to the installation instructions for individual mods until I get an order that works. Not so long ago I decided it wouldn't do any harm to run BOSS as an extra safeguard. Mod Organizer immediately flashed up its red warning triangle and listed load order/priority errors almost too numerous to count. It took quite a long time to rebuild my manual order (because I stupidly hadn't backed it up.)

 

I tried again a few weeks ago with LOOT and had the same result. It did flag up some stuff that needed cleaning with TES5Edit, which was a big help and ended up eliminating a frustrating CTD problem that was probably originating from the Dawnguard esm, but its suggested load order was crazy. I messed around to get my priorities list to match the proposed order and played the game. The game was a lot less smooth, with very noticeable lag and stutter, so I went back to my manual order and never looked back.

 

So basically, I find it very handy for checking if any mods need a clean, but I stay well clear of the load order it suggests.

[kamikaze00007]

Wow, so everyone pretty much does the same thing I do. I was really wondering as I often see posts along mods that say "Use LOOT or BOSS" but I only see it making a puzzle game out of my load order. As a basic list, I pretty much do this order:

 

UI or Character Creation stuff go to the top

Hairs

Races (none of these right now but assuming they're mostly incompatible with hair mods for vanilla)

Armor and Weapon stuff (I use more armors than I have weapon mods so the order is like that)

Gameplay change stuff (like dual wield parry or pouncer)

NPC aesthetic changers

Followers

Luxury Suite(and the like since it adds followers)

Follower Tweak mod

-Place xxx mod here like Estrus (none now)

 

That's pretty much it.

 

Strangely, I'm crashing with my HD6950 2GB even though I don't really have any overly big mods on my 4GB rig. I was thinking it might be the load order but LOOT thinks otherwise and jumbles the list up.

[Setekh]

LOOT is better than BOSS was but it isn't perfect, don't just be a sheep and trust the program to do 100% of the work for you, use your head and look at the resulting load order and make changes from there.

[w33beast1e]

I've always just sorted my load order manually, taking care to stick to the installation instructions for individual mods until I get an order that works. Not so long ago I decided it wouldn't do any harm to run BOSS as an extra safeguard. Mod Organizer immediately flashed up its red warning triangle and listed load order/priority errors almost too numerous to count. It took quite a long time to rebuild my manual order (because I stupidly hadn't backed it up.)

 

I tried again a few weeks ago with LOOT and had the same result. It did flag up some stuff that needed cleaning with TES5Edit, which was a big help and ended up eliminating a frustrating CTD problem that was probably originating from the Dawnguard esm, but its suggested load order was crazy. I messed around to get my priorities list to match the proposed order and played the game. The game was a lot less smooth, with very noticeable lag and stutter, so I went back to my manual order and never looked back.

 

So basically, I find it very handy for checking if any mods need a clean, but I stay well clear of the load order it suggests.

If that works for you then more power to you Sif. 

 

MO is bound to flag a lot of stuff though,   It's not that it's  disagreeing with your manual placement method, it's taking into account a combination of plugin load order, mod priority, and archive handling and applying it's logic based on the current state. It can't possibly know what records you personally want to win in a conflict.

 

I don't see it as a binary choice personally, It's not dumb to take advantage of automation. But it is smart to get an understanding of what's going on so you can fix things that just pressing a sort button won't resolve. 

[enkephalin07]

I don't hate LOOT, it's still at the top of my toolkit, and I consult it regularly and often warnings that I otherwise wouldn't have gotten. But in it's current state, it's really far from the authority that people are taking it as. What pisses me off is that I can't get help on an issue without someone dismissing it as a load order problem, and presenting BOSS/LOOT as the panacea, and if I don't use it, I won't get help at all.

[Mord Sif]

 

I've always just sorted my load order manually, taking care to stick to the installation instructions for individual mods until I get an order that works. Not so long ago I decided it wouldn't do any harm to run BOSS as an extra safeguard. Mod Organizer immediately flashed up its red warning triangle and listed load order/priority errors almost too numerous to count. It took quite a long time to rebuild my manual order (because I stupidly hadn't backed it up.)

 

I tried again a few weeks ago with LOOT and had the same result. It did flag up some stuff that needed cleaning with TES5Edit, which was a big help and ended up eliminating a frustrating CTD problem that was probably originating from the Dawnguard esm, but its suggested load order was crazy. I messed around to get my priorities list to match the proposed order and played the game. The game was a lot less smooth, with very noticeable lag and stutter, so I went back to my manual order and never looked back.

 

So basically, I find it very handy for checking if any mods need a clean, but I stay well clear of the load order it suggests.

 

If that works for you then more power to you Sif. 

 

MO is bound to flag a lot of stuff though,   It's not that it's  disagreeing with your manual placement method, it's taking into account a combination of plugin load order, mod priority, and archive handling and applying it's logic based on the current state. It can't possibly know what records you personally want to win in a conflict.

 

I don't see it as a binary choice personally, It's not dumb to take advantage of automation. But it is smart to get an understanding of what's going on so you can fix things that just pressing a sort button won't resolve. 

 

 

Oh, yeah. I agree.

 

I tend to group my mods by category. So I have overhauls, gameplay mods, follower stuff, armour/clothing/weapons/items, animations, body and appearance mods, naughty mods, re-meshes and re-textures, skeleton, in that sequence. That general order is my own choice, and I tend to keep the priority window and load order the same, keeping that pattern within the masters and then again within the plugins. Once I had all that set up I looked at any warnings MO was giving me and made minor tweaks until everything was given the all-clear.

 

Apart from the odd specific problem that wasn't to do with load order, that's always given me a pretty smooth game. LOOT mixed everything up with large chunks of its order seemingly sorted by nothing more than the alphabet, and it was just really stuttery to play. I suspect there's something obvious that I missed with setting it up before running it but I figured if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Probably by luck more than design I somehow managed to get a working order before trying LOOT, so I stuck with what worked.

[w33beast1e]

 

 

 

Oh, yeah. I agree.

 

I tend to group my mods by category. So I have overhauls, gameplay mods, follower stuff, armour/clothing/weapons/items, animations, body and appearance mods, naughty mods, re-meshes and re-textures, skeleton, in that sequence. That general order is my own choice, and I tend to keep the priority window and load order the same, keeping that pattern within the masters and then again within the plugins. Once I had all that set up I looked at any warnings MO was giving me and made minor tweaks until everything was given the all-clear.

 

Apart from the odd specific problem that wasn't to do with load order, that's always given me a pretty smooth game. LOOT mixed everything up with large chunks of its order seemingly sorted by nothing more than the alphabet, and it was just really stuttery to play. I suspect there's something obvious that I missed with setting it up before running it but I figured if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Probably by luck more than design I somehow managed to get a working order before trying LOOT, so I stuck with what worked.

 

Yeah, keeping both panes in the same order would work perfectly well if you're on top of things as you seem to be. If it ain't broke..

 

I love the ability to sort mods themselves by priority, but it's definitely not just fire and forget. And there's a period of...settlement with MO and LOOT, in my case it's taken 3 months to get things running properly smoothly.  I spent considerable time manually arranging the 300 odd mods in the left pane using what little common sense I possess whenever something seemed funky. Now MO rarely ever complains and when it does it's suggestions seem to be spot on. 

 

I don't give much thought to plugin load order these days apart from those situations where LOOT patently can't figure out which record should take priority due to patches or merges or whatever. It's the priority list that gets most of my attention. 

[w33beast1e]

I don't hate LOOT, it's still at the top of my toolkit, and I consult it regularly and often warnings that I otherwise wouldn't have gotten. But in it's current state, it's really far from the authority that people are taking it as. What pisses me off is that I can't get help on an issue without someone dismissing it as a load order problem, and presenting BOSS/LOOT as the panacea, and if I don't use it, I won't get help at all.

Yeah that's a fair point. But getting stonewalled with "it's your load order" is as old as the hills. Like you say, if LOOT really was the panacea nobody could get away with that as a default response without getting their hair pulled. 

[enkephalin07]

 

That general order is my own choice, and I tend to keep the priority window and load order the same, keeping that pattern within the masters and then again within the plugins.

 

Maybe if you're running MO, that's all it takes to keep a stable load order, keeping the plugin order consistent with the mod order. I also try to keep them as consistent as possible with the order of their masters.

[SpyderArachnid]

I use both still. LOOT and BOSS. BOSS to sort, and LOOT to recognize dirty edits. Seeing as BOSS is outdated and doesn't recognize dirty edits on some things, LOOT does that just fine for me still.

 

I'm not a big fan of LOOT though. Every time I have used it, it has always given me a conflicted load order. Even with my own manual changes and such, for some reason mods still seem to not be in the right place.

 

For instance, Inhabitants of Skyrim. I use a bunch of NPC replacers, and with BOSS, it sorts them properly. Inhabitants of Skyrim first, then the rest underneath it so my single ones overwrite the major overhaul. Never have any issues with it. But with LOOT, even if I manually sort it that way, when I get ingame, it still overwrites all my single NPC replacers with Inhabitants of Skyrim. For some reason it always loads that after all my other replacers, even with special rules.

 

There is a few mods I have like that that LOOT messes up, no matter what I do manually to it. So I use BOSS and edit my user list to sort my load order. I've gotten pretty familiar with my mods by now to know where they should load, and with BOSS, I never have any issues like I do with LOOT.

 

 

So I save LOOT to keep track of any dirty edits that need cleaning, but I will stick with BOSS when it comes to sorting. Plus my OCD kicks in with LOOT. BOSS keeps it organized.

[cretin]

I'm old school, so I use all of NMM (I know... but just to install / uninstall and track versions), BOSS, and Wrye Bash.  I've tried LOOT and I really don't trust it, primarily because it has a WILDLY different idea of load order than BOSS does in my case, and I have a very stable setup with this 1200+ hour launch-day character.  I don't think BOSS is as dead as people suggest; the masterlist is still updated, but yeah, the writing's on the wall.

 

I've also tried to move to an MO workflow, but I'm worried about the effort of starting basically from scratch to do so.  So use what gives you a stable game, there is no magic bullet.

 

[afa]

I ran LOOT once when MO for whatever reason decided it was time to clear my load order and list them by alphabetical order one day.

And was too lazy to rearrange all my mods at once...I mean usually I just download a mod then put it at a place that I want.

 

I actually find load order to be much less of an issue for me since the days of Fallout and Oblivion. For whatever reason the "difficult mods" are fairly obvious what order they have to go in, or if it matters at all.

Most conflicts for me happen when using multiple armor replacers which LOOT doesn't really help.

[Veladarius]

I sort my load order myself and had stopped using BOSS long before LOOT came out. I did try it a few times but was not impressed, especially with the lack of any sort of organizing of mods. I doubt I would use it or BOSS again.

[...0...]

LOOT is better than BOSS was but it isn't perfect, don't just be a sheep and trust the program to do 100% of the work for you, use your head and look at the resulting load order and make changes from there.

 

This also counts for Mod organisers. Majority here on LL uses MO but ive seen in past six months constantly people who have problems with MO.

 

I use NMM and almost never have problems specially sinds LOOT(before took me alittle more effort but also manage with BOSS). Now i must say i know what im doing and do alot manually and know which mods work and the ones that not.

 

It's all about knowledge and trial and error you can eventually master it, for it will take longer then others offcourse.

 

Enough tutorials out there to learn how it all works sadly many dont read or watch them it could save them alot of trouble.

[sulaco]

Personally, I don't trust LOOT. Yes, I seem to be getting a stable game by trusting the way it sorts things but there are still a few things I have to manually move around myself, like W.A.T.E.R. and More Nasty Critters, which has some dependencies on other mods that have to be loaded a certain way.

 

Whenever I load into qasmoke, the water in pool is now a murky blue. With BOSS, it always looked fine. In the game, W.A.T.E.R. appears to be working normally so I just leave it alone.

 

Still, I felt more comfortable with the way I was sorting things when I used BOSS. All the armor mods together, all the weapon mods together, all the player home mods together, all the follower mods together, etc. LOOT pretty much throws these things all over the place in my load order and I have to trust it haha

[Dubhorizon]

I used to avoid LOOT with a passion. I was very used to BOSS and never really listened to anyone when they said, use LOOT it's much better. See I pressed it once and kinda ruined my mod and load order entirely in MO, or so I thought. I re-run it on a lazy day, just to test things out, and since then I've never used anything else than LOOT. I don't even bother reading about load orders anymore, neither do I care about where merged esps go. It sorts everything out itself. MO - LooT - SKSE with properly setup memory patch - ENB with latest binaries - vanilla inis - optimized textures and you have a crash free setup. If you still get ctd it's a mod or overmodding that does it.

 

Edit: Forgot to add Stable ugrids to load and racemenuprecache killer (or the highly suggested Racemenu)

[Riex]

IMO using MO and LOOT gave me about 90% more stability in my game. I still manually sort a few mods, but when I used BOSS I had to manually sort what felt like a few dozen mods.

[kamikaze00007]

I think SpyderArachnid's idea would be a good balance in using MO, LOOT, and BOSS.

 

As far as MO goes, the left pane is pretty much a "lower overwrites higher" but only in the case of having your stuff placed on your Data folder.

 

For example you have a single armor mod made for UNP and you use CBBE. There's this mod that replaces that UNP armor's meshes and textures to fit for CBBE but doesn't include the esp. Placing the UNP original above the CBBE replacer on the left pane ensures that the meshes and textures override just fine. On multiple non-overwriting mods, this order can be ignored.

 

The right pane on the other hand is where LOOT and BOSS applies as this is where the esp esm load order stuff matters.

 

LOOT as some have mentioned, often places stuff all-over which is bane for the self-organized modder. But we can use it as a detection/diagnostic tool to scan stuff for dirty edits that need-need-not be cleaned, with the added bonus of it being able to tell if the dirty edits were intended or not.

 

BOSS can also be used as a starter for ordering stuff if one is so confused in reordering esps, but only before manually picking off stray orders later.

 

IMO a combination of the following would make a fine balance.

 

Sometimes a save-cleaner like Save Tool 1.13beta is really helpful in getting through constant crashing brought about by messy convoluted scripts that pile up unknowingly (speaking from recent experience). Turning off Autosave options in the game also help (this isn't something mentioned by any of the tools above).

 

As a side note, the first time I ran LOOT, it said that my main vanilla game esm/esp's need cleaning for dirty edits left inside. Should I clean them or not? I actually just installed my fresh game and it's apparently left dirty by the developers?

[enkephalin07]

In MO, Tannin shows a bit of the user-condescending attitude that LOOT does: "I know better than you, so I don't have to explain shit! Hey, don't you ignore me, or I'll slap you!" 

 

I trust LOOT when it gives me an explanation, not so much when it returns a load order scrambled for no purpose other than to be cryptic and unreadable. Fortunately MO does it less often so I tolerate it, but if it gets to LOOT's level, I'd have to demand a little more documentation.

 

EDIT: Also, if they're part of the modding community that turns their noses up at adult mods, then they really degrade their credibility by giving any advice on them at all. Yet their ordering algorithm can't seem to leave a single plugin alone, even lacking any reason for re-sorting them.