Please include a readme.txt file

[varenne]

First, I really do appreciate this site and all members, most especially modders, translators and others helping to continue to evolve our Oblivion game experience.

A simple request to all is to include a readme.txt file with all mods, altered mods, composites and re-purposed compilations. I also like how some post the same text that is contained in the readme file, along with the first post page where the mod archive file appears.

It is IMO much more efficient than having those using them ask numerous questions in posts, not to mention better than having to run searches in very long threads for answers.

At a minimum they should include requirements and dependencies. Next in importance would I feel be if specific versions are required, and what they are. I'm sure there are others equally important, feel free to post and add them here.

If I were a modder, I would want to provide the easiest possible path for users to follow, so a mass effect could occur, speeding up improvements and potentially extending or expanding additional useage of my mod.

my 2 cents worth...

[ljacquard]

This is a legitimate request.

I realize the efforts and time it takes for people to translate mods only for our enjoyment. I don't want to unnecessarily criticize, even less sound ungrateful. I am definitely not.

Yet, it only leads to frustrations on both sides, users and translators, if we don't know what is in the files, and how compatible they are between each other in each version. There is no point in releasing stuff out in the nature without proper instructions, and ideally testing.

[GSBmodders]

yeah its a legit request but i will say this, i stopped writing read me's for one reason. only the smallest minority of those who download a mod ever read the damn things. no matter how well explained they are, how detailed they are and informative they can be it simply doesn't matter when the majority cant be asked to read a txt doc

instead we get people asking all the same crap in the threads that is explained in our opening posts and read me files. more often then not the fucking question they are asking was answered in the god damn post directly above there own, several times again throughout the entire thread, and in the read me file of the mods that do have them.

if you attempt to inform many of these idiots that the answers in the read me file they say shit like "please just tell i cant read english to good" <-- true story, this was said to me by more then one person too.

This is a legitimate request.

I realize the efforts and time it takes for people to translate mods only for our enjoyment. I don't want to unnecessarily criticize' date=' even less sound ungrateful. I am definitely not.

Yet, it only leads to frustrations on both sides, users and translators, if we don't know what is in the files, and how compatible they are between each other in each version. There is no point in releasing stuff out in the nature without proper instructions, and ideally testing.

[/quote']

in most cases we dont know the answer to compatability either, in the cases of translations the best we can ever do is approximate and in places of where large bits of text do not translate we have to guess

try writing a read me file based on guess work, I'm sure you will be a big hit.

about testers, yeah thats a great idea and everyone would love to have them, but if you read the threads and look over the bug repots your going to find that most people here report nonexistent bugs.

the problem they are having is because they are to damn dumb to set up a functioning load order they instal boss click and then cry to us when there game crashes to the desktop

they use Coronerras Maximum Compatibility Skeletons which is years out of date instead of growlfs and then cry to us about how there characters are screwed up and how we broke there game

so until there is a decent sized pool of available beta testers who are competent enough to trouble shoot problems as well as report them

i dont think we will be seeing to beta tests

no one needs the extra headaches involved that ae going to arise from users just doing to beta to get the mod sooner

[gregathit]

GSB is quite correct on all points. Most of the OP's that contain the plugin have the equivalent of the readme information already contained in them and some folks still refuse to read it.

Remember that most of these plugins are still evolving so in reality you are playing a beta

All that aside if you feel that any plugin in the Oblivion Lovers with PK section lacks enough information in the OP just give me a holler on what you think needs to be added or is missing and I will see what I can do.

[Kashiwaba Tomoe]

I agree that readmes are a good idea.

You don't have to be able to write a Shakesphere work, just explain the basics and stuff.

I've noticed some mods here have half the information I need in the .rar, and the rest on the thread, as well as the two contradicting eachother, or just plain not having one.

If you don't install the mod the vert second it can create problems.

[varenne]

GSB is quite correct on all points. Most of the OP's that contain the plugin have the equivalent of the readme information already contained in them and some folks still refuse to read it.

Remember that most of these plugins are still evolving so in reality you are playing a beta

All that aside if you feel that any plugin in the Oblivion Lovers with PK section lacks enough information in the OP just give me a holler on what you think needs to be added or is missing and I will see what I can do.

Agreed, most OPs do include the equivalent, I'm totally okay with that, I just copy & paste it to a .txt and include it in the downloaded .zip. .7z or .rar for later reference. I'm also okay with alpha and beta versions not having them too, but at some point they should have them, IMO.

But I think we are combining issues here also. Not having the basics in the form of a readme or in the OP, and the lack of users actually using them. This is also an English based site, so non-English reader issues is yet another issue. I'd like to focus on the one we can as a community address the easiest, the total lack of readmes, and I'm perfectly okay with the originals as I've become proficient in converting them to some form of English if need be.

For mod users that refuse to read the OP, or the readme there is an acronym from technical writing, development or programming for that; RTFM! or in this case, read the readme! If we all repeat that sooner or later they may catch on, much like pointing them to the load order you put together.

Simply put, I'm trying to maximize my time when reviewing new, translated or re-purposed mods. When it lacks the most basic of requirements in either the OP or a readme, I then have to go looking for it, IMO wasting time when I could be reviewing and reporting back on the mod. Easy enough to address, those with it are at the top of my review list, those without go to the bottom of the heap or simply get deleted.

[ljacquard]

I can understand where you're coming from. At least, I am trying.

It must be extremely frustrating for a modder to answer the same questions day in day out, and get the feeling that documentation is pretty useless. Like you said, no one ever seems to read the f*cking manual. Yet, I'd like to keep trying to convince you that it's quite the opposite, and that useful documentation is essential.

I am close to 17 Go of (compressed) mods downloaded for Oblivion now, about 220 installed, with a Bashed Patch. I try to keep them religiously documented in WB, with a link back to the Nexus, LoversLabs, TesAlliance, or wherever I got them from. If incompatibilities or particular points of interest are pointed out in the readme, or I happen to read about them in the release thread or the comments, I record them under WB too. Etc, etc.

I don't see how I could do otherwise, knowing that Oblivion is not the only game that I have interest in modding : Morrowind, Neverwinter Nights, Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines, Mount & Blade, Fallout New Vegas, Baldur's Gates 2, Dragon Age, to mention only the largest contenders. I happen to switch between them quite leisurely, depending on my mood. Since almost all of them have quirks (doesn't work with sound acceleration, needs AA super-sampling to be toned down, etc.) and/or incompatibilities between mods, and since I only have so much time dedicated to gaming, documenting is the only way I found to remain sane at the end of the day. If I can't trace the mod back to its documentation, as much as I might have enjoyed it right after downloading it, it's usually "mod > /dev/null" for me.

I will not further bore you with details, but allow me to mention that I've been following the Lovers PK adventure since the Wolflore forums, like many of us here. At the beginning, getting the damn thing to install used to be worse than a chore : a thorough ordeal. Buggy plugins, generally incompatible with each other, not to mention untranslated. Any kind of load order was more like a hit or miss business.

Then Loverslabs happened, the best thing after sliced bread. Donkey, Ashal, and many other translators and contributors provided us for the first time with a documented, translated and working package. You don't know how much THIS page meant to me at the time. Prophour finally added to the general bliss that I went through by creating Lovers PK AIO, and that's more or less where we're standing today.

So why all this fuss then, will you ask ?

Well, I don't want to go back to that joyous mess that Lovers PK used to be.

If asking for a simple readme and changelog is too much to handle for some modders of this site, then they should question their prejudices. If asking for incompatibilities between plugins of *the same package* (like I did previously) sounds like an offending concept, then we shouldn't be surprised to see so many "crap" questions appearing day after day. Lack of decent documentation, (which doesn't have to be as long as my wall of text here), won't make them disappear, it contributes to the chaos.

Let me conclude by a quick event that happened to me recently, and that illustrates my motive in supporting this thread.

I've been nothing short of satisfied by Lovers PK AIO v4.2. It's still my package of reference for "Lovers with PK", with a couple of addons, like LoversBitch or Nusbie's terrific animations and voice packages. Yet, I didn't move over to the latest version of PK AIO, because I still have no clue what's really in there. When I happened to first install it, for testing purposes, it bugged out on me. When I reported the mishap, I was looked down suspiciously like a wet nosed newb' inventing inexistent bugs faster than light speed.

Putting the blame upon Prophour is not my purpose here. He has his hands full with translating stuff that he hasn't developed himself, then making it actually work with the English version of the base game, and finally supporting it on the forums. I sincerely feel a great gratitude towards him.

However, I will take this example to point out how much a simple, translated changelog and a quick "compatibility/crash test run" (do the main features of the plugins work with another, like the main menu, yes or no ? if they don't, pull the release and back to design!) could have produced wonders, and to promote

how

it

should

be

done

That's really all to it.

(snip)

[Kashiwaba Tomoe]

I can understand where you're coming from. At least' date=' I am trying.

It must be extremely frustrating for a modder to answer the same questions day in day out, and get the feeling that documentation is pretty useless. Like you said, [i']no one ever seems to read the f*cking manual. Yet, I'd like to keep trying to convince you that it's quite the opposite, and that useful documentation is essential.

I am close to 17 Go of (compressed) mods downloaded for Oblivion now, about 220 installed, with a Bashed Patch. I try to keep them religiously documented in WB, with a link back to the Nexus, LoversLabs, TesAlliance, or wherever I got them from. If incompatibilities or particular points of interest are pointed out in the readme, or I happen to read about them in the release thread or the comments, I record them under WB too. Etc, etc.

I don't see how I could do otherwise, knowing that Oblivion is not the only game that I have interest in modding : Morrowind, Neverwinter Nights, Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines, Mount & Blade, Fallout New Vegas, Baldur's Gates 2, Dragon Age, to mention only the largest contenders. I happen to switch between them quite leisurely, depending on my mood. Since almost all of them have quirks (doesn't work with sound acceleration, needs AA super-sampling to be toned down, etc.) and/or incompatibilities between mods, and since I only have so much time dedicated to gaming, documenting is the only way I found to remain sane at the end of the day. If I can't trace the mod back to its documentation, as much as I might have enjoyed it right after downloading it, it's usually "mod > /dev/null" for me.

I will not further bore you with details, but allow me to mention that I've been following the Lovers PK adventure since the Wolflore forums, like many of us here. At the beginning, getting the damn thing to install used to be worse than a chore : a thorough ordeal. Buggy plugins, generally incompatible with each other, not to mention untranslated. Any kind of load order was more like a hit or miss business.

Then Loverslabs happened, the best thing after sliced bread. Donkey, Ashal, and many other translators and contributors provided us for the first time with a documented, translated and working package. You don't know how much THIS page meant to me at the time. Prophour finally added to the general bliss that I went through by creating Lovers PK AIO, and that's more or less where we're standing today.

So why all this fuss then, will you ask ?

Well, I don't want to go back to that joyous mess that Lovers PK used to be.

If asking for a simple readme and changelog is too much to handle for some modders of this site, then they should question their prejudices. If asking for incompatibilities between plugins of *the same package* (like I did previously) sounds like an offending concept, then we shouldn't be surprised to see so many "crap" questions appearing day after day. Lack of decent documentation, (which doesn't have to be as long as my wall of text here), won't make them disappear, it contributes to the chaos.

Let me conclude by a quick event that happened to me recently, and that illustrates my motive in supporting this thread.

I've been nothing short of satisfied by Lovers PK AIO v4.2. It's still my package of reference for "Lovers with PK", with a couple of addons, like LoversBitch or Nusbie's terrific animations and voice packages. Yet, I didn't move over to the latest version of PK AIO, because I still have no clue what's really in there. When I happened to first install it, for testing purposes, it bugged out on me. When I reported the mishap, I was looked down suspiciously like a wet nosed newb' inventing inexistent bugs faster than light speed.

Putting the blame upon Prophour is not my purpose here. He has his hands full with translating stuff that he hasn't developed himself, then making it actually work with the English version of the base game, and finally supporting it on the forums. I sincerely feel a great gratitude towards him.

However, I will take this example to point out how much a simple, translated changelog and a quick "compatibility/crash test run" (do the main features of the plugins work with another, like the main menu, yes or no ? if they don't, pull the release and back to design!) could have produced wonders, and to promote

how

it

should

be

done

That's really all to it.

(snip)

You sir, have summed it all up.

I would say more but it would be pointless now.

We are all smarter for having read this post.

Bravo, and good day sir.

[varenne]

it contributes to the chaos.

@ljacquard - They pretty much sums up my thoughts, kinda scary you had the same one.

Order or Chaos? I'll even settle for something mid way between the two.

@gregathit - I sent Ashal an email about polling functionality and have not as of yet rec'd a reply.

Ideas: Let's move away from conjecture and hearsay and to actual facts, based on statistical analysis of our member user base. Could be one poll of separate. And yes, I know polls are not 100% reliable either, but it's something to work from at least.

Poll question 1: Do you read or use the readme's?

Poll question 2: Do you read or use the instructional text in the OP of a MOD, typically located on the first page?

Poll question 3: Is English your primary language? What other languages do you read, write or speak?

English is my primary language, but over the last 30 years I've learned to read and write in others. In fact when I was web master and admin I looked into that specific functionality when selecting web technologies for some of my prior clients; multilingual support.